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 12th International Combatives Seminar + AAR

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Dennis
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PostSubject: 12th International Combatives Seminar + AAR   Thu 24 Jul 2014, 18:22

We are planning this years event for Sunday 7th September, at the usual Queens Drive venue.

I need to order the course teeshirts in advance, so require accurate numbers for expected participants.

So, if you are going to attend, please reply to DenCQB@Yahoo.co.uk ASAP



Looking forward to seeing you there

Den

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Last edited by Dennis on Mon 08 Sep 2014, 10:49; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: 12th International Combatives Seminar + AAR   Thu 07 Aug 2014, 11:06

Full details here

If you plan on attending, and haven't yet sent in your name, please email me ASAP with your teeshirt size to DenCQB@Yakoo.co.uk

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PostSubject: Re: 12th International Combatives Seminar + AAR   Mon 01 Sep 2014, 18:16

Well, just a few days until our get-together. The teeshirts have been printed, and the program finalised. I'm looking forward to seeing the guys again.

KITLIST

Thai pads

Kick-pad

Mouthguard

Boxing gloves

Notepad/pen

Water

Snack
----
See you on Sunday

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Greg Hall
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PostSubject: Re: 12th International Combatives Seminar + AAR   Wed 03 Sep 2014, 17:52

Looking forward to it. Should have a couple of guys with me too. See ya ll sunday !!
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PostSubject: Re: 12th International Combatives Seminar + AAR   Thu 04 Sep 2014, 10:10

Looks like it's going to be a warm day [as usual for the International] so bring plenty of water.

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Greg Hall
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PostSubject: Re: 12th International Combatives Seminar + AAR   Sun 07 Sep 2014, 22:29

Great seminar today guys. Good to see everyone so receptive and giving 100 percent. Very good info shared. And a nice sam sue fan after. Gambey !!
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PostSubject: Re: 12th International Combatives Seminar + AAR   Mon 08 Sep 2014, 10:33

Excellent days training, always a privilege to train with such motivated blokes.

Just to reiterate, PM if you want a copy of the slides I was going to use. As is often the case when presenting without script, there are a copy of extra points I included and one or two I left out (by oversight rather than design I would have to admit!). To that end I will post a thread to cover/back up the lecture which will probably make the slides redundant should you be looking to use them purely as reference, although I'm still happy to pass on if required.

Thanks again fella's, was a pleasure to be a part of it. Good to see some of the old faces again and equally good to see some new one's, I suspect one or two people having been given an insight into a fairly unique brand of self protection training.

Cheers.

S
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PostSubject: Re: 12th International Combatives Seminar + AAR   Mon 08 Sep 2014, 10:48

Fantastic day. As ever, it was great to be among a group of enthusiasts who train hard, give 100% and make the day enjoyable.
I'll be posting some photos and reports later, but for now a quick thank you to Shackleton, Si P, Greg and "Super Steve for providing superb instruction, and to all the guys for making the day a success.

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PostSubject: Re: 12th International Combatives Seminar + AAR   Mon 08 Sep 2014, 11:57

First photos....


[Class photo]


[The instructors]


[The course teeshirt]

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poissonbracket
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PostSubject: Re: 12th International Combatives Seminar + AAR   Mon 08 Sep 2014, 14:15

Yet anther great day. Big thanks to Den and all the instructors. Good memories of Prescott from Si's stuff and a puzzled wife asking "Why are you rolling around on the floor?" thanks to Shackleton. Excellent day!
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PostSubject: Re: 12th International Combatives Seminar + AAR   Mon 08 Sep 2014, 14:43

What a great day yesterday it is great to train with a great bunch of guys who are eager to train and learn together and help each other. Big thanks to Dennis for putting together this great day. Big thanks to Shackleton and Si porter for looking after me during the fights and running the Fizz drills excellent. Feeling very sore all over today and very tired the standard in the suit scenarios was excellent your all running a half marathon next year before I fight you lol, thanks again Steve C
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PostSubject: Re: 12th International Combatives Seminar + AAR   Mon 08 Sep 2014, 17:48

By the way, this was the first International which Si Squires missed. He was overseas and couldn't attend. His legacy continued however; as the traditional final suit scenario was introduced by him at the very first International, and has been the climax ever since.
We look forward to having Si back with us next time.

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simon porter
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PostSubject: Re: 12th International Combatives Seminar + AAR   Mon 08 Sep 2014, 17:50

I can only agree with all of the above, big thanks to Den and everyone else for making it the great day it was.

Si

Ps I genuinely didn't realise how many knees I was asking you to do, sorry. On the up side no one died and "what doesn't kill you makes you strong!", well strong and unhappy, but we will focus on the strong for now.
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rtotale



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PostSubject: Re: 12th International Combatives Seminar + AAR   Mon 08 Sep 2014, 21:10

Another fantastic International. Every time I attend, I come away with more information than I know what to do with!
For me, the padded suit scenarios have become key in helping me to identify areas I need to focus on, as well as enabling me to understand how I react under pressure, especially in terms of being able to process information and respond accordingly. That was the toughest fight I've had with Steve by far. How he manages to maintain such consistency against so many great blokes always amazes me.

Big thanks to Den, Si, Steve, Shackleton and Greg for their superb instruction. Also, thanks to everyone else for making me feel so welcome (especially Slacky for the constant motivation)

Looking forward to the next seminar.

Cheers
Nige
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Greg Hall
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PostSubject: Re: 12th International Combatives Seminar + AAR   Mon 08 Sep 2014, 21:15

Already done Shackletons presentation with my pal as the beginning part of our boxing session. Followed by 3x2s skipping 3x2s shadow 3x2s bag and 3x2s pads.
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PostSubject: Re: 12th International Combatives Seminar + AAR   Mon 08 Sep 2014, 22:27

http://graycook.com/?p=644

An article by gray cook
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PostSubject: Re: 12th International Combatives Seminar + AAR   Tue 09 Sep 2014, 11:22

The presentations were as follows:
Si Porter kicked off the day with "Lessons from the Gutterfighters" Si has been training with us for over ten years [and was presented with a commemorative certificate and a Combatives book as a memento during the seminar] During that time he has kept extensive notes of the various techniques, exercises and drills, and so I asked him to go back over his notebooks and compile a lesson to impart the essence of what we have been doing over the years.


I'm sure the participants with agree that Si gave a very illuminating, and arduous, session.

Next up I gave an update on how the famed OODA Loop applies to Self-protection. Ever since Marcus first introduced the OODA Loop many years ago we have used this model as a prime Mindset training method. In this module I examined WW-2 fighter pilot influences, and their concepts which, and compared them with Colonel Boyd's work.




We incorporated some practical drills at every stage, then finished with a mini-scenario.

Next, Shackleton gave us a fascinating presentation, which he described as "The neural developmental sequence" It's essentially how the body learns movement (with the prime example being a baby). The progression is stability, rolling, crawling, sitting, squating, standing, walking, running. Each primitive pattern provides an essential component for the more advanced patterns to follow.
Once understood the model can be applied to all movement we undertake and be used to understand failings in our current movement patterns and how to correct. Additionally warm up/movement prep sequences can be learned to prepare the body for performance and authentic movement rather than compensation and dysfunction.



It was groundbreaking material, and the feedback from the guys was highly positive.

Greg Hall has a wealth of experience, and he gave us a module starting with rapid eye strikes, then building into a full attack sequence.

<img src="http://illiweb.com/fa/pbucket.gif" border="0" alt=" photo Gregteaching_zpsdb78083d.jpg"/>

Quick, easy to learn; the essence of Combatives.

It has become an eagerly anticipated part of the International to have a session on "Combat Judo" Grappling is such an essential element, that we always have some material on this to take away. This year "Super Steve" Callaghan, who is a Black Belt with Si Squires, took over the teaching duties.



He gave us a series of fast applications using "street Judo" that were of devastating effect.



Steve also wore the suit for the final scenarios. His efforts, at the end of a hot, tiring day were outstanding.

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PostSubject: Re: 12th International Combatives Seminar + AAR   Wed 10 Sep 2014, 10:24

Superb action shot of Michael kicking during his suit fight


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PostSubject: Re: 12th International Combatives Seminar + AAR   Wed 10 Sep 2014, 12:55

I loved the history of the world war two fighter pilots and the difference in shot down planes between America uk and Germany was startling. The early cycle of behaviour pre ooda loop was very good too. Very similar.
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PostSubject: Re: 12th International Combatives Seminar + AAR   Wed 10 Sep 2014, 17:32

Glad you liked the material Greg. As ever, our aim is to give the guys stuff they can take away and use.
Cheers,

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PostSubject: Re: 12th International Combatives Seminar + AAR   Wed 10 Sep 2014, 17:46

Excellent picture of Michael and it was great he was able to produce such a move against the suit, especially considering his was one of the more horrendous scenario's of the day;

- pre-fight phys and dislocation of expectation with Slacky taking his place at the last moment.
- When his turn to fight finally came it was then started and stopped twice before it started for real.

Throughout he stayed in the zone, totally focussed and never once was peturbed by events. An outstanding performance.
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steve
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PostSubject: Re: 12th International Combatives Seminar + AAR   Wed 10 Sep 2014, 18:48

Michael the Karate kid strikes again going to tie your feet together next time!!!!!
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PostSubject: Re: 12th International Combatives Seminar + AAR   Wed 10 Sep 2014, 20:23

Just checked, got the whole thing on video ;0)

Ya beauty!!!

Mike, PM me for a link.
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Nick Engelen



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PostSubject: Re: 12th International Combatives Seminar + AAR   Wed 10 Sep 2014, 23:26

12th International 7 September 2014 Liverpool

Looking into the gym seeing people but none I recognized and children’s shoes standing in front of the fridge I started to worry that the seminar was going to be held in another venue and I as a result was at the wrong location.  I hadn't printed off the details so couldn't check so just had to wait.  I was relieved when Denis from Scotland turned up and after greeting I asked if we were at the right location as there was a class going on in the gym and I hadn’t seen anybody else from the regular attendees.  Denis confirmed it was the right location and said we were early.  I asked after Alan and Dave but both couldn’t make it.  Not long after that Slackbladder came in and having a bit of company and a conversation going time moved faster.  This would be the first seminar without Si Squires.  In my mind’s eye I saw him sitting in a beach chair in the sun enjoying a piece of watermelon and some soft drink smiling at the thought of us going through some arduous drills.  Soon everybody was there and we could move into the gym.  Not long after Den arrived together with Steve.  Greg from Manchester arrived with his friend and son and "Super Steve" started to take payments.

I had travelled up to the UK the Friday before to first attend Geoff’s black belt course on the Saturday where after a fellow attendee, Tony Preston, was kind enough to give me a lift from Coventry to Birkenhead from where I took the train to Liverpool Limestreet station.  I was still tired and sore from the travel and the training as three of the guys in Coventry had done a grading which involved some hard drills to test willpower and determination.  The travel hadn’t really gone smoothly neither as a copper theft had made it impossible to take the train straight from Eindhoven to Schiphol airport.  Travel is always an adventure.

Den then started the introduction.  The introduction started with an explanation of the t-shirt’s emblem and saying.  Amboss oder hammer sein which is  German for being either the hammer or the anvil.  The axes were chosen for their Nordic looks.  .

LESSONS FROM THE GUTTERFIGHTERS

Den explained that Simon Porter had been making lots of notes about the drills over the years and that he had asked Simon to come up with a warm-up and a module.  Den mentioned that when he was in south Africa teaching bodyguards, he and  Clint would train together during off-time. They devised drills that took them to their limits.  The women would come and see where all the groaning, screaming and sometimes crying came from.  So the drills today would be based on this.
We got handed over to Si who started with having us running around.  The mild jog turned into a reaction drill where we had to drop down on command, touch the floor or run around a hand placed on the floor.  This all while keeping track of where other people were so we could avoid crashing into each other.

Then we were asked to partner up, I partnered up with Mike, a guy from Manchester.  From the setup of things I saw we had to do shuttle runs… something we hadn’t done since 2006 when after the Marcus Wynne seminar some internationals stayed for some more training on the Monday before catching their flight.  This was gradually build up with exercises at each station.  
Next it was mixed with some padwork where we had to shuttle run sprawl and strike.  This series of drills finished with some drills with knee strikes of which Simon later claimed he honestly didn’t know that we would end up doing so many knee strikes…  


[Nige during the never-ending kneestrikes]

I however remember an international where Simon enjoyed encouraging people to do commando crawls…  I think everyone wondered when those commando crawls were coming…



The  drill involved a grappling dummy, two horizontal lines on one station and a big shield-pad and another line at a second station.  


[Click on this for a video of the drill]

The drill was to hurl the grappling dummy over the high line then crawl under the low line and elbow the pad 5 times and after doing this twice run over to the next station to jump over the line, drop down and crawl under to strike the pad 5 times do this a second time and join the queue.  Before the drill officially started I tried to do the thing with the heavy dummy to feel what it was like.  The dummy was quite heavy, I assumed that the adrenaline would help.  We queued up and the drill started, the first time went smooth.  However after finishing the entire thing once I joined the queue to see the big lads really hurling the dummy over as if it was a sack of bird feathers.  I wanted to try this too and accidently threw it through the lines so had to do it again…  After finishing the entire thing I noticed some people sitting there so I thought of sitting too but Steve told me to get up and join the queue again.  That was when the drill ended.  Saved by the bell.


[Click for video]

GAUNTLET

Next came the Gauntlet. This was the creation of Si Squires, and has been modified with a section added during an Instructors Program.
Si Porter had us start with you facing the wall where you got pushed with a pad in the back.  This was the signal to start using aggressive forward drive to blast the padman to the other side of the room with elbows.  Then do some shuttle runs and go to the edge of the circle to sprawl before charging at a wall of two partners holding big kick-shields; backed up with 5 people.  The intent would be to smash through their line with the goal to tire you out so the use of rugby moves or moving around wasn’t allowed.  On the other side you had to lay down on your back to be covered by a mat and two people on top of that.  You had to fight out and escape followed by blasting another padman across the room and do 10 hard knee strikes.



The drill wasn’t finished however, you had to sprawl again and blast a second time through the line of padmen with their back support…

I joined the guys with the pads to give some back support.  Looking at the guys performing I remember the international in 2012 where they did a similar drill which I didn’t participate as I was exhausted already.  The chain of thought started to unfold, I couldn’t do it back then because I felt too tired, will I be able to do it this time?  I felt quite sore from doing the black belt course the day before as well as from the drills we did up till then.  I joked to Peter Little that I felt like bottling out just from watching and he said I should go up and get it done with.  I recalled Geoff’s words of the day before: ‘the point when you want to quit is where it starts in a real situation.’

So I went for it, the first part was easy, but after sprawling I stormed at the padmen, the line was more solid than I thought and my fend collapsed and my head hit the pads where after I bounced back landing on my ass.  A bit dazzled and embarrassed I jumped to my feet to engage again and got through. I laid on my back and was covered by the mat.  The first thought going through my head was what’s the best way to get out.  Sometimes it’s better to not think and just do and I was out before I knew it.  At this point it felt more trancelike, being an observer rather than a participant and I noticed myself blasting Mark across the gym and doing 10 knee strikes.  I sprawled again and ran at the line of padmen again making sure I wouldn’t bounce back this time and screamed at the top of my lungs.  Although they were required to stop me for 12 seconds it felt as if it took me only 3 seconds to get through….  I was exhausted and we were just one hour into the seminar…  Den explained the backstory of the drill, the mat part came from his instructor course were the participants had to come up with a drill and could use all objects in the room.  I was there watching as it was the day before a seminar.  The group was split in half and the first group came up with the drill and the second group underwent it.  After every one of the second group had done the drill the second group could come up with a drill for the first group.  However the members of the second group first wanted to know whose idea the mat thing was…  To conclude the hard drill we did the positive self-talk in a circle.

OODA LOOP APPLICATIONS

Next Den gave us a lecture about the O-O-D-A loop which was developed by the late colonel John Boyd.



 Den explained that they had taken a look into world war two pilots.  We were given figures of the number of kills of several English, American and Russian aces.  Then we had a look at German pilots and their kill score seemed to be much higher than that from the allies.  We had a specific look at Erich Hartmann who seemed to have a similar philosophy to Boyd’s as well as a very street fighter like mentality where the fight is already won before the physical altercation starts.



Taking the advantage by coming at an angle so the opponent can’t really orientate was explained as well as practiced where after we did some restrain technique that allowed us to keep control of the environment.



This led us into our first scenario.

We all had to go out and wait to be called inside.  I was the first one to go back in.  Arriving upstairs Den instructed me to use the fend when being attacked.  Steve gave me some verbal aggression before attacking me.  I fended up and moved into him denying him stability and the distance required to punch effectively.  Den told me to close my eyes and now control my space at the signal.  Steve was being the big aggressor while Simon and Shackleton circled around me to outflank me.  I kept moving around and pushed them back until Den stopped the drill and had me closing my eyes again.  I felt quite awkward doing this as I had been punched in the back of my head on seminars in the past.  This time I was instructed to do the same while pointing out any weapon I saw.  The first thing I saw was Den grabbing a bottle, when pointing that out Simon sliced me across the arm with a knife.  I moved back in a straight line knowing I had a lot of open space in the gym.  I told my assailants to stay back and kept pointing out the weapons I saw.  Den ended the exercise and told me to sit down before he called in the next person.  After everybody had done it we got a debriefing.

NEURAL DEVELOPMENT SEQUENCE

Next we were handed to Shackleton who did a module on functional movement screening.  He explained how we as babies develop the strength and patterns to be able to do the next step.  Like looking up develops the muscles to be able the crawl which develops the core strength to eventually squat, get up and later walk.

Over the next hour we were shown several exercises to correct our patterns.  He showed us how stability is software and nothing physical.  One demonstration was rolling over from being on your back by using only the upper part of the body.  As the first two volunteers were already able to do it Slacky was picked to demonstrate on.  For some reason he seemed unable to do it as he started the movement from his hips and waste.  Shackleton asked us what difference we noticed and I pointed out that the others used the shoulders rather than their hips.  There was however a more important difference Shackleton told us.  The eyes… where the eyes look at the body goes to.  I asked: So he has to use his head?  Shackleton confirmed…  I couldn’t resist adding: ‘for a change’ to which people started to laugh.


[Shackleton working with Slacky]

From the roll we went into crawling and taking some steps.  Shackleton went around correcting people.  I was wondering how such a simple thing we do every day could feel so awkward when you stop and start doing it step by step consciously.

Throughout the day Shackleton helped several people with injuries.


[Shack helping Greg with an injury]

FIVE SECOND FIGHT

Then we were given to Greg Hall who did a module on the Eye-jab.

It’s a simple technique and after getting the feel of the mechanics Greg showed us how we can use one simple technique to cover a wide variety of situations.

I was partnered up with Mark for this and we had some real fun on this one.


[Si chokes Mark, as Nick looks on]

Greg is Manchester’s best kept secret, not to say one of the hidden martial arts treasures of the UK.  Whenever I have spare time when traveling around the Liverpool Manchester area I try hooking up for a private session.  I really recommend people to train with Greg whenever they have a chance.

COMBAT JUDO
Before the final suit scenario we had a final module to cover.  Combat judo… given by super Steve.


[Steve demonstrates an escape on Michael]

 We were shown several throws and chokes as well as some groundwork.  It was a great module well presented.  I had the pleasure to train with both Simon Porter and Mark, both from the Gutterfighters for this one.


[Greg working with Bill]


HIGH STRESS SCENARIO

This led us to the scenario fight at the end of the seminar.  We were briefed by Steve about some of the pre-fight drills before the first people started.  After Shackleton, Den from Scotland and Peter Little it was my turn.  I was called forward and was ordered to do press ups.  I immediately got some verbal from Shackleton about my performance.  I tried to correct it… then I had to squats where after I had to do press ups again.  It’s strange how you can go on and on when adrenalized.  After having to run on the spot while punching in front of me for 10 seconds Shackleton told me to control my space and they started to move into me.  I used the fence and told them to stay away.  However not liking being stuck in the corner I moved through them and went into the other direction.  Realizing I couldn’t go far that way as that way Steve was behind me and now I had to keep check of that as well I moved back.  It must have looked like a comical scene from a movie where I had to choose between being in the corner and trapped or h-running the risk of getting punched in the back of the head…  Shackleton screamed at me ‘yeah what are you going to do now huh?’  I was ordered to go head to head with Steve now…  At the moment my head touched his I ate some punches.  Trying to hit back my punches fell short as he moved out of my range.  I chased him around and tried to kick him which almost caused me losing my balance.  



I finally got hold of him by clinching to find out he wasn’t going to go down willingly.  I hit him wherever I could but got hit in the groin area.  A disadvantage of clinching is the risk of being thrown which he did.  We landed with him having me in a scarf hold pin and before I could think of the escape he mounted me.  The rough surface of the suit felt like sandpaper on my face.  People screamed encouragements to get out.   I tried thinking of the escape feeling like the fox in the story of the cat and the fox where the cat escapes a pack of dogs by running into a tree and the fox being eaten by the dogs while thinking which move of his hundreds of techniques to use.  I covered my head to protect from the punches and buckled to get him off without result.  I noticed someone pushing him…  This gave me the chance to escape.  I got to my feet and started kicking him wherever he was exposed…  The fight was ended.  I was completely out of breath and felt emotional.  I walked to Steve to hug him and to ask if he was ok and was assured he was fine.

After this I watched the other fights while getting myself rehydrated again.

Some of the guys were given a "dislocation of expectation" by Shackleton, prior to the fight...


[Waiting to be selected for the fight]

Others, were made to start up close and personal...


[Michael nose to nose]

After everyone had finished we packed and said bye to the people who weren’t coming for the Chinese meal.

THE LOST CHINESE RESTAURANT

I hopped in the car with Slacky and Simon Porter.  There had been a cycle race in Liverpool that day.  Kind of tour of Britain and many of the roads were still blocked.  Simon seemed to know more swearwords than the average heretic as he became increasingly frustrated with the situation.  Of course we were all very hungry after such a hard day and some roadblocks weren’t going to keep us from our food.

We arrived at the Chung Ku restaurant at the docks and soon after everyone was there.


[The post-training scoff. Several guys had left by this stage]

The meal was delicious, the beer and tea lovely and the waitresses looked gorgeous.  I also had great company to share the experience with.  Facing the windows looking over the Mersey river I could see the sun setting down while were eating and talking.  The conversations went about a range of stuff.  Greg was the first to leave as he had to drive all the way back to Manchester.  Not long after we all left and Slacky was kind enough to drop me off at the hotel before driving all the way back to Leicester.  I was too tired to do anything else so went straight to bed.

THE LEAVING OF LIVERPOOL

Next morning I got up and washed before walking to breakfast.  After breakfast I checked out and went on my way to the city centre to meet Den.  I took the bus from near the hotel and thanks to a fellow passenger who was kind enough to tell me what stop I had to get off I arrived at Lime street station not long after.  First things first I went to get a ticket for the plane.  I aimed at being at the airport an hour up front and was told to take the train at 15.15.  I thanked the lady and walked into the WH Smith opposite the coffee shop.  I had still a lot of time left and decided to go take some pictures now it was nice weather.  After taking some pictures from the buildings around the station and the nearby park I went back inside and sat down at the coffee shop, I didn’t feel like buying a coffee and felt a bit bad to occupy a chair without buying but this was the best position to observe the station.  I noticed the old clock on the opposite wall and took a picture of that while keeping an eye on a police officer talking to a bearded men and his dog.  At first it looked like a stop and search but by the length of the talk and the demeanour of both the officer and the guy I concluded they were just chatting.  Not long after I saw Den entering the building so I took my bag and walked up to meet him.  We walked out and went to Waterstones for a coffee.  After finishing our drinks we went to see Tommy McNally in another nice looking location.  I got flashbacks to the year before where I collided with a guy on an electric vehicle inside the building.  We had chats about the seminar, meditation and technology.  After a good chat over a coffee Den walked me back to the station where after a visit to the toilet I took the train to Manchester airport from where I took my flight home.

This concluded a great weekend with great people, great instructors, fun drills and interesting material.  Thank you all for the great time lads!

Kind Regards,

Nick Engelen
--------------
Edited to add photos by Den and Steve
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Sijkd1
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Number of posts : 878
Registration date : 2007-07-17

PostSubject: Re: 12th International Combatives Seminar + AAR   Fri 26 Sep 2014, 10:19

Looked like a good one. At dinner with Paddy and Den, soon after, I heard it had gone really well with some newcomers and new presenters.

The International is, as ever, evolving. No wonder with the way Den is; on a personal level inspiring me to push boundaries and keep moving forward.

The new blood, new research into sports and performance management (Shack); the record keeping and revitalising of old drills (Si Porter) and the stripping away to functional basics of martial arts (Super Steve) all help to move us forward.

And doesn't Super Steve truly give you the opportunity to find out what is functional and real in when he's punching you and pinning you in that suit ?


Time for me to retire, methinks.

:-)
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PostSubject: Re: 12th International Combatives Seminar + AAR   

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